On this episode of the podcast, James speaks with John Kim, PharmD, FAARFM, a functional pharmacist who has transformed a 150-year-old pharmacy into a wellness center that offers functional medicine services.

Since pharmacists often see patients more frequently than clinicians, they have an opportunity to work more closely with patients to help reduce unnecessary prescriptions and provide in-depth guidance to improve chronic health issues.

Over his career, Dr. Kim witnessed how conventional pharmacology enabled suboptimal or unhealthy routines for patients and neglected opportunities to better support patients. He saw an opportunity as a pharmacist to step up and offer education about lifestyle improvements to optimize health. His practice now serves as a community healthcare hub and provides affordable group education sessions alongside other integrative medicine services.

Does this pique your interest? Listen to the full episode to learn more about:

  • How Dr. Kim transformed his pharmacy
  • Building a successful group visit routine
  • How and why to use social media to reach patients and your community
  • Practical ways a pharmacy can consult patients from a functional perspective
  • And much more!

Transforming Pharmacy into Functional Healthcare | Ep 287

James Maskell: This broadcast is brought to you by the Evolution of Medicine’s Practice Accelerator. For more than six years, we’ve helped doctors and health professionals build their own low-overhead, high-technology practice, making it efficient and effective at bringing in patients, educating them consistently, getting the right technology stack and building a strong, sustainable practice. If you want to find out more about the Practice Accelerator, go to goevomed.com/accelerator.

Hello, and welcome to the podcast. We are talking the Year of Growth. We’re talking about community growth, and we’re going to be talking to pharmacist, John Kim. He has built an incredible practice. You’ll hear during the podcast how he’s turned his pharmacy that’s been around for 150 years into a wellness center, some of the things they’re doing to build local community. He’ll talk about this sort of journey of pharmacy from something that just dispenses pills to something that can really create health and the potential for that and some of the pitfalls of that.

At the end of the podcast, we have a really exciting announcement of some of the things that I’ve been working on to bring health through pharmacies to rural populations that don’t have a lot of access to care. Really powerful half an hour, lots of great information for anyone who’s on the front lines of trying to transform the health of their community. Enjoy.
So, a warm welcome to the podcast, John Kim, welcome.

John Kim: Thank you so much, James. It’s an honor to be on your podcast. I mean, you’re very much of a forward-thinker, as well as an encourager within the functional medicine world, so I’m really honored to be on your podcast.

James Maskell: Ah, man, I’m really excited to have you here. This year is all about the Year of Growth for us and looking at how functional medicine ideas and lifestyle medicine is growing and really taking off. And so, I’ve just been following you since we’ve interacted online and just seeing the work that you’ve done. It fits into so many nice categories for me because one, we’ve actually spent quite a lot of time talking to pharmacists over the last three years because we realize they actually have quite a lot of leverage on the care that patients get because they’re seeing them more often. There’s this movement in pharmacy to really go beyond just filling prescriptions but to actually try and create health at the pharmacy level. And also, obviously, you’ve done a lot with social media and being able to build a good community on that.

So, I guess, maybe let’s start from the beginning and talk about why you wanted to be a pharmacist in the beginning and then sort of how that transitioned to really thinking about creating health in your patients.

John Kim: Yeah, absolutely. The reason that I got into pharmacy was because I wanted to become a compounding pharmacist for a long period of time. The reason was because I ended up having to work for a compounding pharmacy very early on in my pharmacy school career. And first year pharmacy school, I got exposed to working for a compounding pharmacy. And one of the things that I saw was that it was really changing people’s lives, especially dealing with hormone replacement therapy, where we could customize the patient’s care for their needs based on their overall chemistry and their labs. It was really an eye-opening moment that right in that spot, I was actually an undecided student, and after getting exposed to that, I got into pharmacist school, transferred in, and really jumping into the overall thinking process of owning a compounding pharmacy and then really growing in that.

One of the things that really changed me was my fifth year in my pharmacy rotation heading into sixth year was working for a hospital—working in the emergency room, to be specific—where I actually saw this one particular patient that came in every week with the same issue, dealing with an uncontrollable high blood pressure. And the only thing that we did, was basically counseling the patient in terms of how to optimize their particular drug and get them out the door.

That was something that I didn’t really like, that really didn’t resonate well for me. The reason being is at that point in time, the JNC 7 guideline was available, and the first few pages there talked about losing weight, eating correctly and also managing stress. Those three key points were never ever discussed within the hospital, and we were busy just getting the patient out the door. And I thought there was something more than that, and that was not very satisfying for me.

What I did was, I ended up having to reach other practitioners. James LaValle was one of the… You know James LaValle. I mean, James was one of the key guys that I ended up having to talk with, and he actually really led me going into functional medicine. Then I ended up having to talk with Dr. Bob Rakowski, and this was very early on, even before graduating, and asked why I got into functional medicine. I mean, they really opened my eyes in terms of how I could integrate—at that point in time it’s called integrative medicine—into the overall pharmacy model to really optimize the patient’s outcome in helping them out.

At the same time, I’m satisfied based on what I could give to the patient to get their life better. It’s not about how do I optimize three or four medications. We’re going to talk about polypharmacy later on, but that’s not the way that we should handle all health. And the entirety of that is that I ended up seeing that it was a sick care model, instead of being healthcare, very early on. So, that’s why I got into functional medicine as it was, and I did end up doing a two-year fellowship training through A4M and doing functional medicine. That was basically the start of it all. And then after that, I got into basically consulting female patients, dealing with hormone replacement therapy.

James Maskell: So yeah, give us a little bit of an idea of like how your boots on the ground approach actually evolved too. Like how did you… Just the practical side of it. Because I know that when we first started Evolution of Medicine, one of the big gaps that we saw was that there were people like yourself going to this kind of training, but then really struggling to work out, “How do I actually implement this day to day?” Because they had a day job and it was like, “How do I actually like start to wedge some of this knowledge into my care? Do I have to completely transform the way that I’m delivering it? Or are there easy starting points to come in?” So, how do you traverse that?

John Kim: Yeah, so my boss at that point in time, working for a place called Tiffany Natural Pharmacy. They were just starting to be an integrative pharmacy, but they were also starting their own compounding lab, so I was able to be one of the implementers in creating that lab, as well as educating the public about what compounding pharmacy was.

One of the key things that we did was we ended up having to provide a consultation service for patients. So, being a young guy and getting into functional medicine and not knowing much about how to implement the hormonal consultation program, there was a lot of trial and error that I ended up having to go through. I did end up having to speak with a lot of my other mentors that I had to work with, and that really was a big thing. So, right environment has to be one of the key things because I see a lot of pharmacists wanting to get into functional medicine, spending all that money, and getting all the training, but they don’t really have the necessary plan into what they want to do afterwards, is one.

And the second thing is: What kind of niche practice that you want to get into? So early on for me, my niche practice was doing hormone replacement therapy, looking at adrenal fatigue issues. Dealing with those type of things was really a handful. But another thing, it was really satisfying because a lot of the OBGYNs and the doctors that we were working with, they didn’t really necessarily have the overall education, nor did they know how to approach these patients. So, us getting involved as a compounding pharmacist as well as functional medicine wise was one of the things that really drove the growth of our compounding practice, and as well as growing my overall experience in taking care of the patients.

James Maskell: Yeah, and what structure did you find for consulting people? Was it 15 minutes when you could get them? Or did you have long appointments where you’d do other testing? Or what did it look like, a session with John Kim?

John Kim: Yeah, very early on, I was utilizing ZRT salivary hormone testing. And at that point in time, I was only looking at just hormones, not looking at adrenals, but that kind of built it into our practice, looking at adrenal function as well. And, you know, you get to learn these things during the didactic lecture, but not knowing fully in terms of how important it was, again, trial and error as well. So, that was one of the things that I would implement and say that, “Hey, if you want to work with me, one of the key things that we really have to do is order your salivary hormone testing, including an adrenal profile, and then we’ll have a sit-down, one-hour meeting, and then we’ll have a private consultation.” We actually had a private consultation room to sit down with patients.

James Maskell: That’s cool.

John Kim: Yeah.

James Maskell: Well, let’s jump into polypharmacy for a minute here because I really feel like one of the reasons why we focused on pharmacists a couple times a year on the Evolution of Medicine for the last three years is because ultimately the numbers are really staggering. Like one, the numbers of like how many drugs Americans are on is staggering. But recently, actually in September, I shared a meme on social media about polypharmacy that came from Medscape. And this is essentially the risk of adverse health outcomes, such as falls and hospitalization, depending on how many medications you’re on. If you’re on two medications, your risk goes up by 13%. If you’re on five, it goes up by 58%, and if you’re on seven plus it goes up by 82%.

Now, I haven’t been on the front lines of medicine, but I’ve interviewed plenty of people who are, and even as recent as like the August Functional Forum, we had a couple, nurse practitioner and a pharmacist, on there who moved to functional medicine because they saw people on seven plus medications all day every day in the hospital. So, with these kind of numbers, I guess I’m just wondering what is it like to practice in a way where you come across someone, and you say, “Okay, let’s take a history,” and you identify that they are in the grips of polypharmacy.

John Kim: Right. I think the biggest challenge we actually have in the United States, especially, is our culture. There’s a culture that we have to completely rely on pharmacies, and as well as working with doctors, just to take medications. I think it’s really inbred into our overall culture in doing that.

Second issue that we actually see is people end up having to lose control over their health. One of the key messages I end up having to point out is that the doctor of the future is you. You need to be in your own terms, in terms of your health and really looking to control that. It’s not about working with the doctor or pharmacist. You yourself have to make the choices, in terms of being healthy, eating right, pooping right, de-stressing correctly, sleeping well. Those are key pillars that we have to focus on.

But, the thing is, it’s not being well-educated enough in our culture to drive that. So, if you see the overall rate of diabetes right now in kids, it actually increased during the pandemic. This is where the overall growth trajectory is actually happening, that people are going to be sicker, they’re going to be on much more medications. And it’s not the best scenario of Americans. I mean, if you look at the overall statistic dealing with COVID-19, what happened? Americans actually have the highest level of death. Why? It’s because of the metabolic issues that’s been happening, and it’s not being well-addressed enough.

And then, the government is another fault as well. I mean, that’s another whole different topic that we could talk about, but there’s a lot of multiple reasons why there’s a polypharmacy going on. And then the pharmacy education is not anything encouraging us to look in different ways, except for the fact that even when I was in pharmacy school—this was back in 2005/2006 when I was doing my final set of rotations—was to encourage us to optimize the medications.

If you could control that particular blood pressure using two or three or four prescriptions, that’s optimization. Instead of actually looking at, all right, is there certain things that we are actually looking at? Is it the person’s diet? Is it the metabolic issues? Is it stress related? Those are never ever discussed. And this is where the culture… And nothing had changed since when I was actually doing my rotation and during my education. It’s gotten worse. So again, we need to change the overall culture of medicine and healthcare and educating patients out there that it is not normal to take three or four prescriptions. It’s actually making your scenarios worse.

One of the things that I end up having to talk about also—and you’re really big on this as well—is about drugs causing nutritional depletion, which can expand into heavier issue dealing with other disease states later on. If you’re taking statin drugs for a long period of time, having coenzyme Q10, causing mitochondrial dysfunction, on top of the fact that you have vitamin K2 being depleted, you’re more likely to be causing oxidative stress and having to deal with diabetes down the line.

So, these are things that end up having to be the educating point that we all have to do as a healthcare professional. I don’t care if you’re a pharmacist or even functional medicine providers, we all have to be in the front line to talk about these things, and it’s not being well-discussed. So, my overall thing is that I want to change the overall culture in healthcare that it is not looking to doing sick care, but more of a healthcare that needs to be the wellness approach, in terms of the holistic side of it.

James Maskell: Absolutely. Well look, to change the culture, it takes a certain level of confidence to start to ask the right questions and do things differently. And part of the reason why we’ve been obviously building communities of practitioners with the Functional Forum communities and why we’ve gone to things like the Pharmacy conference is because at that conference… If a pharmacist who’s a little bit interested in functional medicine shows up at a conference with 150 other pharmacists, with people like Jim LaValle, who you mentioned, and all the leaders in the sort of like, I guess, functional, integrative medicine/pharmacy movement, it gives you confidence that you’re not the only one seeing this and there are other people doing it. And look at all the ways that they’re innovating, and I want to be in on this too.

I guess the question for you is: How much confidence does it take in these ideas and where can one gather that confidence in order to challenge at point of care? Because you’re going against the way that you were taught at school, the other pharmacists on your team aren’t probably thinking that way. To change the culture in each individual pharmacy, never mind in across the whole pharmacy population, it takes time, but it takes some initial confidence to step out and say, “Hey, I want to do something about this. Look at the evidence. Look at what we should be doing. Why aren’t we talking about this?” What would be your recommendation to people out there who are listening who get it and they say, “Right on John Kim, I’m into it,” but maybe don’t have the confidence to step in and try and change the culture in their pharmacy?

John Kim: Absolutely. So, sixteen years now in the pharmacy world and looking at some of the mistakes that I made of myself. One of the things that I would teach any young pharmacist or even pharmacist now trying to get into the functional medicine world, one of the things that you have to do is treat yourself first. You have to make the changes within yourself to make that initiation. It’s all about intention in your heart and getting that through in yourself and then able to implement it everywhere else.

So, first thing first, if you’re not eating well, if you’re not sleeping well, that’s something that you as a pharmacist or any healthcare professionals out there needs to implement first and having the necessary lifestyle changes have to be done. You make the change first and then that’s going to spread like wildfire to others as well.

And then, you’re able to implement some of the programs, small things. You could start, especially in a pharmacy, you could do small things like drug-induced nutritional depletion. Looking at some of the things like if the patient’s taking statin drugs, obvious reasons you could implement CoQ10 or something along that line, those little things like that and jumping into it. You don’t have to spend thousands of dollars in educating it, but there are enough resources out there, especially certain vitamin companies out there, that already have those things they could easily, easily implement.

And then, if you are planning on really changing the atmosphere, in terms of their health, then you could go into something that—James you do this a lot and I really applaud you for doing this—but really implementing the programs within your community. It takes a village to make a change, so you need to get the community involved. And that’s what we did exactly here at Robinson Wellness Pharmacy. The pharmacy, my pharmacy is 152 years old. So, in order to implement a long-driven tradition of just regular dispensing medication was hard enough. To make the switch, in terms of integrative practice, but also compounding, and then really getting to the patients about educating about just things like hormone replacement therapy.

So, what we did at our pharmacy from early on was providing community educational sessions on a monthly basis. Now obviously, it kind of had to slow down during the pandemic, but that’s what we did. Every month, we ended up having to talk about hormones or thyroid health or gut health. That’s one of the things that we had done. It was a free event. I mean, now I probably need to charge a little more because of things that we could provide within that seminar, but it was a free event. I mean, it only took about 30 minutes and having one or two people to start out, and then at the end, by the early part of 2020, we actually had about at least 20 people joining, on top of we had one or two doctors who stopped by as key speakers.

Those are things that we could easily, easily implement, and then getting the conversation started about health and wellness. These are things that we could easily do without causing you to spend a lot of money.

James Maskell: Yeah, that’s great. Yeah, I mean obviously education is key. I guess I just wanted to touch in with you on sort of the economics of this shift because I know you have some ideas and some opinions about it because ultimately one of the reasons why this has sort of got some leverage is the economics of being a pharmacist has got worse, in terms of the amount of money you make per prescription over time. And obviously, some pharmacists have seen the writing on the wall and thought, “Well look, if people have to walk to the back of the pharmacy to get the prescription, how can I engage them into health on the way to the back?” Right?

We’ve had some pharmacists on the show that have talked about having vertical vegetable gardens. We’ve had obviously supplements as a starting point. We’ve talked about drug-induced nutrient depletion as a way to engage people into taking supplements and increasing the average value of the orders. But I know it could be a double-edged sword, I guess, and that was something that I know that you wanted to share.

John Kim: Yeah, the intention has to be there by the practitioner to provide the right care for the people because the heart-to-heart connection you actually have with your patients is a key thing that’s going to really make the change necessary to deal with wellness and health. This is one of the key things that I am seeing, which is very encouraging for all the pharmacists that are doing that and trying to get into functional medicine and wellness.

But also, there’s sometimes a misunderstanding in terms of why they got into functional medicine and spending all this money to do training. So, if you’re just thinking about just making extra sales on vitamins and trying to do that, and then not able to provide a necessary full, thorough program and getting the patients as a walk through from point A to point B to getting their proper health in check, it’s not going to work well, one. And then two, is that the patient may not see the results that they’re looking for or they’re saying, “Hey, this is really expensive. I don’t want to do this.” So, they end up having to shop around and dealing with something else.

This is the reason why I like a one-to-one connection with patients or having a group setting of coaching-wise, and then implementing a program to do from start to finish.

So, good example, again, just talking about hormone replacement therapy, for instance. I just don’t talk about hormones anymore. I used to. I used to just say, “Hey, I could reach out to your doctor and then get a progesterone capsule prescription,” and be done with it. But that doesn’t really take care of the overall root-cause issue. And this is where the practitioners have to look at in a bigger fashion of functional medicine. Functional medicine’s going to be there.

The issue is why functional medicine started and then what’s the reason looking at integrative practice. It’s because of root cause. We know that there’s a root issue that’s actually being happening, and we need to take care of that in order to get the patients started to get better. So, even just looking at hormones in general, I look at how they’re sleeping, what they’re eating. Especially, eating bad oil is going to cause a shift of the hormones anyway and inflammation, so we’re going to fix that issue. Are they pooping well? Are they having proper GI function? Are they having to have enough time to de-stress and all on that line?

So, it’s a comprehensive approach, rather than just looking at hormones. So, the first session that the patient might be having with me will be just looking at lifestyle and changing that. In many cases, within four to six weeks, you could reverse a lot of the patient’s issue dealing with sleep. I could have probably just recommended to taking melatonin or something else, but I’m looking at nutrition, micronutrients aspect of it, and then really implementing an overall lifestyle change.

James Maskell: Awesome. Yeah, that’s really exciting. Well, I’ve got some… I want to talk about that in a minute, but before we get there, I want to just talk a little bit about social media because ultimately that’s how we met. And you’ve done an amazing job of building a community on social media and Instagram, particularly.

I guess, what led you to start that? And what are some things that you would say to other practitioners about what it’s meant for your ability to impact, change and to grow? This is the Year of Growth here at the Evolution of Medicine, so you’ve obviously grown a lot on that platform. Tell us a little bit about why you decided to do it, what has been like some secret to your success, and then also, what has it meant for your pharmacy for you to go on that journey online?

John Kim: Yeah, absolutely. The reason that I got into social media was I wanted talk about CBD. That was the only reason that I did that. I got involved in educating about CBD to different pharmacy practices, and as well as other professionals, and as well as the community. I mean, I used to have a lot of these CBD lecture events in my community, but that’s the reason why I did it. I wanted to actually bring forth the education within the online space because there was a lot of crappy information out there.

And then, one or the other, I couldn’t just talk about CBD because CBD is just a small thing, whereas the functional medicine and looking at the root-cause aspect of it is much bigger. So, that’s when I started talking about different things, in terms of how to have a proper immune function. And then really what took off was, during COVID-19, there was a lot of fear and uncertainty. Me being on the front line and looking what’s happening with the all aspect of infection, and then as well as how to prevent, and what to empower people to not fear was one of the things I wanted to bring forth.

So, that’s what I ended up having to do online. Talked about how to balance your immune system, how to eat correctly during the entire pandemic, what to do with their overall mental health issue they might be suffering from during the pandemic. And it just grew. And one thing that I also did was I started to collaborate with different pages, especially meeting you through Sachin Patel was a key driven point as well. But bigger names and bigger accounts ended up having to really partner up and collaborate and then just getting the message through. And it’s all about the intention. And my intention, again, was to educate in helping people and that was one of the things that really grew.

And another thing that actually led to that was providing opportunities for different speaking engagements. So, recently, I spoke for Vibrant America Wellness. They had an event in Nashville. I’m going to be speaking to them again October 1st in dealing with cell danger response and mitochondrial dysfunction. So, it’s pretty exciting in terms of what’s happening right now and just getting the message through that, “Hey, you know what, pharmacists are well-capable of providing necessary functional medicine, and informations, and making the changes online, as well as within the community as well.”

And just talking about how what we are doing right now within my overall pharmacy is that we’re trying to grow two different practices. One is a virtual side, and that’s really being developed right now. Obviously, I have very solid followers. And as well as I’m going to provide group coaching and other education aspect of it. And having to have people out there who don’t really necessarily have all the means to reach out to you, but they want to have a group support, that’s a good way to really coach them through that.

And then the second thing is we actually moved to a new location for our pharmacy. We rebranded ourselves being a wellness center now, and we do have a wellness center that’s going to be providing educational aspect of it, as well as group events even more, having different supplement companies to come by to do educational showcases. And we’re actually developing a functional medicine forum for New Jersey, New York area pretty soon as well. That’s coming up in November. So, a lot of exciting, exciting things happening. And it just is the overall growth that I’ve experienced, so it’s really fun, really.

James Maskell: That’s great, man. And look, I’m really excited for you and for your efforts, and obviously turning a pharmacy into a wellness center is not just a great business move, but also just like a great signal of where the world is going. I just want to share actually one story here, which I’m excited about, which if you’ve been following me on social media in September, you would’ve seen us announce. But this is the first time I’m going to talk about it on the podcast, and it actually ties a number of these things together.

So, as most of you guys know, I’ve been really obsessed with group medicine for the last few years. I wrote the book on it, and been talking about it, and helping people implement it. It led to starting Heal Community as a business that could really deliver these groups as a service. One interesting opportunity came our way at the end of August, which is Dr. Cheng Ruan, who you probably know, who’s in Houston, Texas.

John Kim: Houston, Texas.

James Maskell: Yeah. He runs one of the most successful clinics in his ACO. So, he’s part of a big ACO called Memorial Herman. And as part of that ACO, they track all the outcomes. And his clinic’s always in the top one or two percent of outcomes because he’s doing lifestyle medicine, he’s doing functional medicine, he’s using health coaching, he’s using groups, and so the outcomes are great. An opportunity came to him recently where the state of Texas reached out because in some of the rural counties in Texas, there’s over a hundred thousand to one ratio of patients to doctors. There’s just no doctors there at all. No nurse practitioners or doctors. There’s plenty of pharmacies, but there’s no doctors.

And so, we are starting a project together. We have partnered together to actually deliver our virtual functional medicine groups to people and recruiting people through pharmacies, essentially. So, he has the ability to bill, this is Medicare and Medicaid. We have the ability to scale up delivery. So, we’ve made an initial contract for 55,000 people over the next three years, which is exciting. And really, all we’re doing is delivering group coaching focused on functional medicine principles, changing the way people eat, and sleep, and stress.

And so, we’re excited about that because, ultimately, we feel like there’s probably situations like that in every state. Certainly, even all around the world, there are people searching for care. As the pandemic has led in every country to doctors and nurses leaving the profession because they’re really frustrated with the way that care was delivered. Early, early, early on in the pandemic, like March 2020, Cheng was talking about this model of decentralized community care, which is getting people together in communities to do healthy behaviors, but not having people come into a central location because ultimately in a pandemic, it’s not the best strategy. You really want to keep people at home.

And so, I’m excited that a couple years later, he’s been able to build and showcase that it works. We’ve been able to build a scalable delivery system. And so, I’m excited in this Year of Growth to showcase that growth is really happening and possible and that all of us are working in our own little ways to try and scale up a health-focused kind of care. And again, the pharmacy is the entry point in a lot of ways because that’s where “care” is happening right now.

So, I’m grateful for that opportunity. If you want to find out more about it, you can visit us at healcommunity.com. And John, I just want to salute you for the work that you’ve done to get the word out, to transform your practice, to show leadership. And now, obviously, the opportunity is coming your way to educate other practitioners and really step into, sounds like your dharma, of shifting the profession.

John Kim: Yeah, it’s exciting, exciting time right now. So, obviously, whatever we want to achieve, there’s no limit in that sense of that. What we are really doing right now is just leveraging based on the technologies and connections that we actually have. So, the timing is correct. It’s all about timing and intentions there right now. I’m really excited. And then, hopefully you and I could work together in implementing something like that within New Jersey as well.

James Maskell: Absolutely. Yeah, I’m excited for that. Well, watch this space. Lots of exciting things happening. If you’re in the state of New Jersey, there might be some exciting stuff coming up. Stay tuned and make sure that you’re on our email list, and we’ll let you know. Thanks so much for tuning in. This has been the Evolution of Medicine podcast. I’ve been with pharmacist, John Kim. We’ve been talking about community, and growth, and the future of pharmacy. Thanks so much for being part of our community.

Send this podcast to a pharmacist who needs to hear it or even a physician that uses compounding pharmacies that could have a more deep and synergistic relationship. There’s a lot of people that want to transform healthcare, connecting them together is the first step, and then there’s potential for exponential transformation.

So, thanks so much for tuning in. This is the Evolution of Medicine Podcast. I’m your host, James Maskell, and we’ll see you next time.

James Maskell: Thanks for listening to the evolution of medicine podcast. Please share this with colleagues who need to hear it. Thanks so much to our sponsors, the Lifestyle Matrix Resource Center. This podcast is really possible because of them. Please visit goevomed.com/lmrc to find out more about their clinical tools like the group visit toolkit. That’s goevomed.com/lmrc. Thanks so much for listening and we’ll see you next time.


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