Kirkland Newman is the founder of MindHealth360, host of the London Functional Forum Community, and is organizing the Integrative Medicine for Mental Health Conference, occurring October 10-13, 2024 just outside of Washington, DC.

The conference aims to bring together various practitioners and professionals in the mental health field to discuss concrete solutions and advancements in mental health care. The conference will address topics such as brain health, technology addiction, gut-brain connection, trauma therapy, genomics, and more.

The goal is to bridge the gap between research and clinical practice and provide practitioners with a wider toolbox to address mental health issues. The conference is open to medical and mental health professionals, as well as passionate individuals interested in mental health transformation.

This episode offers a preview of cutting-edge perspectives on mental health, including cognitive decline. When you listen, you’ll learn about:

  1. Kirkland’s vision to integrate functional medicine into mainstream mental health practices.
  2. The epidemic of mental health issues, especially among young people, is a concern, and conventional medical practices seem ill-equipped to address the problem.
  3. An introduction to some IMMH speakers, including Dr. Daniel Amen, who focuses on brain health rather than mental health; Dr. Robert Lustig, who discusses technology addiction and the impact of the amygdala on mental health; Dr. Georgia Ede, Dr. Dale Bredesen, and more.
  4. The gut-brain connection, trauma’s impact on biochemistry and the gut, and the importance of safe connection and social engagement in healing are also highlighted in the conversation.
  5. And much more!

Register for the IMMH Conference with our discount code: evolutmed100


Unifying Brain and Body for Mental Health | Episode 341


James Maskell:
Hello and welcome to the podcast. This week we have Kirkland Newman. She is the founder of MindHealth360 and is also putting on the next iteration of the Integrative Medicine for Mental Health Conference. This is a favorite conference that ran throughout the 2010s and is coming back in October. If you get excited about this episode and if you’re passionate about mental health transformation, please join us in DC. You can find tickets and find out more about it at goevomed.com/immh. In this episode, we talked about the epic speaker lineup. They have. We talked about the vision for transformation and mental health, and we talked about how practitioners can get on board. We’re going to be there. We’re going to be there with the cameras. We’re going to be covering this conference because we think it’s mission critical. I hope you agree and enjoy.

A warm welcome back to the Evolution of Medicine podcast, Kirkland Newman. Welcome, Kirkland. How are you doing?

Kirkland Newman:
Thank you so much, James. I’m doing really well, thank you.

James Maskell:
Well, a few weeks ago on the podcast we had Dr. Robert Lustig, who actually I met through you last year in London at the Functional Forum, which you’ve hosted in London the last few times, and we’ll talk a little bit about that. But yeah, we had an epic conversation. I wasn’t expecting it to go where it went, but it was really interesting on the topic of the amygdala and he said that’s sort of where he’s moving with his next book. We had a lot of agreement about the power of the vagus nerve and so forth, and I just feel like you bringing back this IMMH conference back into the physical environment is the right thing at the right time, because obviously since it went away, our mental health has declined seriously. I think there’s a lot of interesting new research and it really feels like this is a moment for the integrative medicine community to shine, right?

Kirkland Newman:
Yeah, no, I totally feel that and I’m so excited to be bringing it back in person because it was the first conference I ever went to in 2011. I had really bad postpartum depression in 2010, and I somehow discovered functional medicine through my online research and, in fact, Dr. Sara Gottfried was the first person I discovered, and she was doing webinars on adrenal hormones and talking about the importance of hormones for mental health, which, of course, I was based in London, I was being treated conventionally with conventional psychiatry and I was put on all these antidepressants and sleeping pills, and I was having a terrible reaction. I wasn’t getting better. If anything, I was getting worse.

And so I did my own research for several years and came across functional medicine, which was a sort of burgeoning movement in the US at the time, and I was blown away. I thought, why do more people not know about this? Because it’s a root-cause, personalized, precision medicine model, which is so key to looking at what’s actually causing your mental health issues.

I get so annoyed with people who say, “Look, we don’t know what the root causes are of depression or of anxiety of the mental health issues.” We do actually know that there are some real imbalances that happen in the nervous system, in the body, in the biochemistry which are caused, I always say there are three areas. There is the biochemical, so whether it’s your hormones, your nutrition, your guts, your toxins, your inflammation, infections, the psychospiritual, so trauma, adverse childhood experiences, difficult life circumstances, and your lifestyle/behavioral, which is your routines and your sleep and your exposure to sunlight and your exercise, et cetera.

And so, in 2011, I came across this thing called IMMH, which is Integrative Medicine for Mental Health, which was put on by Great Plains Labs, which was one of the leading functional medicine labs at the time. And I thought, “Wow.” I went there and it was in Chicago and I heard Dr. Greenblatt and I heard Dr. Shaw and I heard all these amazing psychiatrists who were practicing this thing called functional medicine and I thought, “Why do more people not know about this?” It’s so important and conventional psychiatry is really missing a trick.

So, I was thrilled when Dr. Shaw came to me a year and a half ago and said, “Would you be interested in taking on IMMH?” Because Great Plains had been sold. And I thought, this is such an important conference because it really showcases the latest developments, the latest scientific research and best clinical practice, especially in integrative mental health and functional medicine psychiatry. So I’m just totally excited to be bringing it back in person. We did one last year, which was online and that was very successful. But online you just lack that sort of experiential community warmth and support that you get from being in person, which is so important for our mental health, like social engagement as Stephen Porges will tell us.

James Maskell:
Do you ever sit back and think, “Thank you, body, for rejecting those antidepressants and I didn’t get better on there, so it forced me in this direction,” To, I guess, find your life purpose, it seems like?

Kirkland Newman:
A hundred percent. And that’s the thing. This is my life purpose, and if I hadn’t been through what I went through, I would never have found it. So there’s always a sort of silver lining. Some people say if they’ve had a cancer diagnosis, for instance, they often look back and say, “That’s the best thing that ever happened to me.”

Now, I can’t be so presumptuous as to speak for other people, but certainly for me it was a very life-changing experience. I was set to do something completely different. I was involved in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, which has also got a lot of mental health components, but discovering, going on my own journey, being let down by conventional medicine, and discovering this thing called functional medicine, which essentially changed my life, and so I thought, “Why do more people not know about this? Why are more people not practicing this?”

And so I sort of had this vision and this dream that in 10, 15 years, however long it is, people will go to a psychiatrist office and they will be given stool specimens and they’ll be given saliva tests and they’ll be given blood tests and people will look at their nutrition and their hormones and all the different biochemical factors which impact their mental health. To me, that’s the way of the future. And so that’s what’s being showcased here at IMMH, which will be the 10th to the 13th of October 2024 in Washington, DC. We have an amazing lineup of speakers and I’m just so excited because I feel that, slowly, things are shifting and my aim is to get this type of medicine, which is still considered somewhat fringe, into the mainstream. That would be just such a dream, because then anybody in the mainstream, whether it’s in England and the NHS or whether it’s in America, could access this type of medicine, which is so root-caused and so precision-based and so personalized, essentially.

James Maskell:
Yeah. Well, give us some highlights. Who have we got? Who’s speaking? What are they speaking about and why did you choose them to be part of the community?

Kirkland Newman:
I’ve got some fantastic speakers. I’ve got Dr. Daniel Amen, who I heard at IMMH a few years ago. He was wonderful and he is talking about what he calls the end of mental health or the end of mental illness. Dr. Amen is well known for his sort of SPECT scans and he’s got a of about a hundred thousand SPECT scans, which are brain imaging. So he talks about mental health in terms of the brain health and, essentially, he claims to be able to diagnose different disorders on the basis of the shape of your brain, the gray matter, the pockets in the brain. He is a very compelling speaker and he has several clinics around the US that actually offer this type of service. And so he says he can recognize addiction, he can recognize bipolar, he can recognize schizophrenia, depression, et cetera, just by looking at the brain. And so his big thing is this is not mental health, it’s brain health, and so that’s his big position.

We have Dr. Robert Lustig, who is fantastic. He’s a pediatric neuroendocrinologist, or was, at UCSF, he’s now retired and he’s written some fantastic game-changing books. He’s talking about technology addiction and digital addiction in young people, but also in adults and sort of the dopamine, serotonin, oxytocin connection. He’s also giving a talk about the amygdala and the importance of the amygdala in mental health and the relationship between the amygdala and prefrontal cortex and the impact of the amygdala, the issues that we have as a society collectively with dysfunction in our amygdala and how it impacts us as a society in terms of both mental health but also social engagement and the crisis that we face, sort of the meta crisis. And so that’s going to be fascinating.

We have Dr. Chris Palmer, who is a wonderful Harvard psychiatrist who has written a book called Brain Energy, which I highly recommend. He’s come up with a unifying explanation of mental health issues, whether it’s neurodegeneration or whether it’s depression or whether it’s anxiety, and it’s a metabolic one. So he’s essentially a metabolic psychiatrist. He looks at mitochondria and mitochondrial dysfunction in the brain and he sees all brain health issues, whether it’s neurodegeneration or mood disorders as metabolic disorders of the brain. So essentially dysfunctions in the metabolism of the brain and the energy processing of the brain and the mitochondria in the brain, and he talks about how to fix that. So he’s wonderful.

We have Dr. Dale Bredesen who wrote The End of Alzheimer’s, who has pioneered, essentially, a preventative and even reversing approach to Alzheimer’s, and he’s currently doing clinical trials which have had phenomenal results with a group of other scientists and practitioners on how not only to prevent but also reverse dementia. So he will be talking about his latest clinical trials.

We have Dr. Stephen Porges who is the, sort of, author of the polyvagal theory, and he’ll be actually presenting his new endeavor, which is polyvagal music and how you can really tap into the nervous system using this patented music. So he’s teamed up with a music producer called Anthony Gorey and his son, Seth Porges, will also be talking. So it’s sort of a threesome and they’ll be featuring this new polyvagal music and how they can tap into the nervous system and really soothe it to enhance mental, well-being sleep, sense of calm, they can impact ADHD, OCD, all these things using this music. Stephen is a phenomenal pioneer. He pioneered the Safe and Sound Protocol, which, it’s been very effective. It’s a music program that’s been very effective with autism, essentially, but also other mental disorders. So he’s wonderful.

Now, these are all men, and so let’s move on to the women. One more man I’ll mention is Dr. James Greenblatt, who is a co-founder of IMMH and a child and adolescent psychiatrist. He’s talking about the suicide epidemic and integrative approaches for that.

Then we have Dr. Georgia Ede, who is a Harvard psychiatrist who is a specialist in ketogenic nutrition and nutritional psychiatry. So she’ll be talking about ketogenic approaches to mental health and about nutritional psychiatry.

We have Dr. Kat Toups who, of course, is one of the, I think, I always call her the godmother of functional medicine psychiatry because she’s a board certified psychiatrist who’s been practicing for years and years, but she’s also been one of the pioneers of functional medicine, psychiatry. She works closely with Dale Bredesen on his Alzheimer’s clinical trials, and she’ll be talking about the clinical practice of preventing and reversing dementia.

We have Dr. Sharon Hausman-Cohen, who’s going to be talking about genomics. She does very pioneering testing in terms of the genome and how we can identify certain SNPs and how those impact our mental health. But what I like about her research is that she then correlates different solutions. So she doesn’t just tell you, “This is your genetics, these are your SNPs and these are your risk factors.” She’ll also say, “These are the things, these are the interventions, whether it’s supplements or exercise or sleep or lifestyle interventions that will really help with those particular SNPs.”

We have Dr. Felice Gersh who will be talking about hormones and mental health, especially estrogen, and she’s talking about estrogen and the vagus nerve, in fact, and the impact of hormones on the vagus nerve. There are so many. How many? Do you want me to continue?

James Maskell:
It’s a great lineup. What I really appreciate, you said you had those three areas at the beginning, and I feel like you’re hitting on those different areas. You’ve got a lot of nutritional stuff, and I see that that’s a burgeoning area and more people are coming around to it. But if you don’t look at the psychospiritual side of things, you can miss a huge part.

Especially what we’ve seen in the last few years with isolation and let’s just say safety as a focus, I definitely think that in that sort of vagus nerve, safety, polyvagal area, that’s the next area to really explode in the way that maybe nutritional stuff has in the last couple of years, because not only is it obvious and it’s like the science is there, but I think people can feel it. You can feel the change in that. I’ve spoken to doctors who do the Safe and Sound Protocol both with kids and with adults, and if you can have that much of a significant effect by something so simple, I think we’re really onto something for giving people the tools that are scalable. Because some of it’s not scalable. Some of it is, some of it’s not, but music is.

Kirkland Newman:
Music is. The other thing that I wanted to do with this conference was bring together, as you say, these different elements, because when I took over IMH, I felt that it was very swayed towards the biochemistry, and I wanted to bring in the sort of trauma and the psychospiritual aspects a bit more, which is why I invited Stephen Porges.

I also have a wonderful guy called Dr. Marty Teicher, who works a lot with Bessel van der Kolk, and he does neuroimaging, so fMRI studies on developing brains and how trauma affects the brain at different developmental stages. And so that should be very interesting. It’s more neuroscience, but it’s going to be looking at trauma’s effect on the developing brain.

I have, well, she’s not a doctor. She is actually one of the most amazing speakers ever. Her name is Linda Thai, and she is a trauma therapist, and she’s going to be talking about all the different trauma therapies, the somatic therapies, because traditionally we tend to be far too CBT-based and cognitive-based in terms of the therapies that we offer. And as you’re saying, the explosion in the last few years has been about the somatic aspects of mental health, the body-based aspects.

Trauma, we know, is stored in the body. We know it’s in the lower brainstem, we know that it’s very much recorded in the gut and in the vagus function, and that only really things like EMDR and somatic therapies really get to the cellular memory where the trauma is stored. People who try and do sort of talk therapy in CBT, it can be helpful, but essentially that’s up in the prefrontal cortex, which is not where trauma really is happening. So you can talk about your trauma until you’re blue in the face, but you’re not necessarily going to fix it. And I think that’s one of the big evolutions that has been happening, and it’s a really important one.

We also have Dr. Patrick Hanaway, who’s talking about the gut-brain connection because, of course, the vagus nerve is the main highway that connects the gut and the brain and so much messaging goes, ironically, 80% of the communication via the vagus nerve is afferent, which means it’s from the organs to the brain as opposed to the other way around. People think, “Oh, well.” So it’ll be interesting because we’ve got Daniel Amen who talks about, “It’s all in the brain,” and then you’ve got these other people who are much more body-based and who look at the body and the fact that it’s the body that’s communicating to the brain.

And so I find there are a lot of different areas of evolution, and that’s what I really wanted to capture was this sort of mix where also psychedelics is a huge, huge area. We have Dr. Scott Shannon, who will be talking about psychedelics. He’s basically given up doing any sort of conventional psychiatry, he used to be a conventional psychiatrist, in favor of just using psychedelics. At Dr. Bessel Van der Kolk’s conference a couple of weeks ago in Boston, where I met Rick Doblin, who’s the founder of MAPS and also Robin Carhart-Harris, the neuroscience research around psychedelics which they were presenting is pretty mind-blowing, but it’s also the Wild West. Everybody’s sort of rushing in and you have to be so careful because it’s really in the therapy rather than in the substance that the change happens. The substance enables the therapy to happen, but it’s really important to have good therapy around that.

James Maskell:
I don’t think you could do an integrative medicine conference without that topic given how effective those things are. And like you said, it’s all in the integration. Ultimately, I think that a lot of things that we actually have pioneered in integrative medicine, the use of health coaches, the use of groups, the use of these kinds of other areas is actually super, super relevant to that area as well as some of the participatory elements of vagus nerve healing and so forth, which is hot for us.

I’m glad you mentioned the 80% there, because as we’ve started to do these VagusFest events around the country, the first thing that everyone does is a quiz, because part of it is we want people to learn, we want the general public to learn about it. And that is actually one of the quiz questions, which is, what percentage of information is going in which direction? It’s been interesting to see just in the general public how much of an “aha” that is for people, because I think surprisingly few people out there are aware of the gut-brain connection given how in it we are all day every day. But I think they’re even more surprised that the majority is going in that direction, and that’s why. And then there’s a lot of leverage there for the microbiome and food and brain and all that kind of stuff. So it’s a critical topic.

Kirkland Newman:
It is. And what I find fascinating is also the impact of trauma on your biochemistry and trauma on your gut, and how, essentially, childhood trauma can set you up to have much more permeability in your gut. If you have chronic stress and cortisol growing up. It will impact your gut. It’ll impact the balance of good versus bad bacteria. It’ll impact the permeability of your cellular membranes, whether it’s in the gut or the brain or even around your cells. So I find that interaction really interesting.

The other thing you talk about is these groups that you’ve been pioneering, and that’s so important because Stephen Porges will say, “You cannot heal unless you feel safe, and the correlation between safety and connection, safe connection, is a key one. And so in order to truly heal, you need safe connection and you need social engagement.” So his whole polyvagal theory, which is the ventral vagal, which is social engagement versus the dorsal vagal, which is sort of the shut-down, freeze versus the sympathetic, which is the fight, flight, it’s all about being in the social engagement as much as possible because that’s where you rest, you digest, you heal, and growth, repair, and restoration happen.

I think your idea of pioneering these groups, we know that group therapy is incredibly effective, but your idea of pioneering groups where people actually get well together, sort of healing groups where people practice functional medicine together, they benefit from functional medicine together, it’s very powerful because that really is about social engagement and about feeling safe and connected so that you can heal.

James Maskell:
Yeah. Well, I’m glad that our worlds are colliding here for this conference, and I’m very excited to participate there. As I’ve even spoken to mental health people who are coming to the conference, I think there’s a lot of agreement that this is the moment. In fact, actually, I was at a fundraiser a few weeks ago in LA for a new event called the ONE HUMANITY Foundation, and their big idea is to do a sort of a Live Aid style event next year to really get the word out about mental health and to really bring focus to it. I met a couple of women there, one of which she was a pharmacist turned Chinese medicine practitioner and one was an actress celebrity who had had serious mental health issues and had actually talked about it publicly and sort of raised awareness on those kinds of things.

As I was talking about IMMH and talking about VagusFest and these kinds of things, you could just see them light up because they don’t have, even in their Chinese medicine world or in their advocacy world, there’s not a…what would you say? There’s just not a clear path towards some of these tools. They learn about them themselves, and you read about it on the internet and you do it to yourself and whatever, but you are sort of continually frustrated that there isn’t a movement in the medical space to get the word out there. So when I said, Look, check out immh.org, check out the speakers, what’s going on,” You could almost just see them relax and feel safe knowing that, “Okay, well, at least someone’s got this.” Because when you’re in it, you can see what needs to happen, but you are continually frustrated on how big the gap is between what you see needs to happen and what’s actually happening.

Kirkland Newman:
A hundred percent. To me, it’s really, if you look at the epidemic in mental health issues at the moment, especially among young people, it’s heartbreaking the number of suicides and self-harm and anxiety disorders. There’s this wonderful book that’s just come out called The Anxious Generation, all about the effects of technology on our teens and how it’s rewiring young people’s brains and the actual connection between the advent of the smartphone in 2011 and the exponential tracking of self-harm, depression, anxiety, and suicide amongst young people.

So we know there’s this epidemic of mental health issues, and yet the mainstream medical practice just seems so ill-equipped, they’re so limited in terms of their toolbox, SSRIs and CBT. Things are shifting, but to my liking, not fast enough, because we have so many, it’s all about increasing the number of tools.

It’s not about throwing out the SSRIs or whatever. It’s about increasing your toolbox if you’re a doctor or practitioner so that you have more go-to things that you can tap into. So whether it’s diagnostic tools such as lab tests that look at biomarkers and the blood and the urine and look for toxins and look for inflammatory markers and look for nutritional deficiencies, or whether it’s in the treatment which is supplementation and different therapies and vagus nerve stimulation, for instance, or EMDR or more somatic therapies, they just have a much wider toolbox to help deal with, essentially, this sort of breakdown in mental health in our society. It’s really important, also, to take a meta perspective and say, and this is one of the things, one of my heroes as you know is Daniel Schmachtenberger, and he might be coming and talking as well. And if he doesn’t come…

James Maskell:
I thought he definitely was coming, so let’s put that to rest.

Kirkland Newman:
Yeah, he is definitely coming. But the point with him is that he looks at it from a sort of meta perspective and a society-wide perspective, and he looks at systems and the dysfunction. He says, “It’s all very well for you to practice functional medicine on the individual, but look at our soils, look at how toxic our environments are, look at the digital world, look at our politics, look at how unsafe we feel.”

And Steven Porges would agree with that in the sense that he says hospitals and schools and all of the sort of public areas don’t feel safe. They’re not designed with the vagus nerve and polyvagal safety in mind. So, he wrote a book called Our Polyvagal World with his son, Seth Porges, who will also be speaking, and it’s all about how do we make our world feel safer and feel more adapted to better mental health?

We know that things need to change, but there are a lot of people trying to reduce stigma around mental health and try to raise awareness around mental health. And that’s been happening, whether it’s the Royals here in the UK or whether it’s the Live Aid concert that you were talking about. But for me, IMMH really, really is about what do we do? What can we do if you’re a practitioner or if you’re a patient looking for help, concrete, practical health, what can you do? What are the tools that you have access to? So it’s all very well to reduce stigma, to raise awareness, but I feel that in the mainstream, currently, there’s a lack of concrete solutions.

This is what I really want to bring about with IMMH is concrete solutions. What are the latest therapies? What’s the latest research? And how can you implement that in your clinical practice on Monday morning? Because that’s super important.

We know, for instance, with the gut stuff, the gut-brain stuff, we know that for the last 50 years there have been research papers on the link between the gut and the brain, but it has not gotten into the mainstream and it’s slowly starting to filter into clinical practice. But that process is incredibly slow, and that’s what I want to accelerate with this conference. And is it about the training that our doctors receive? Is it about the conflicts of interest in terms of the business imperatives? Is it about the pharmaceuticals? It’s a whole host of reasons that this research that exists is not getting into clinical practice. But that is the loop that we need to close so that we can really bring about a revolution in the way mental health is both diagnosed and treated so that we can tackle this epidemic of mental health.

James Maskell:
Yeah, I love that. I would say one conversation I had that’s relevant to this that I think you would resonate with is I was speaking with a mental health therapist. And she was saying that mental current mental health therapy is essentially the new primary care. Because primary care has so little time, it’s like the one time that you get to unpack for an hour what’s going on. And so a lot of these mental health therapists have no idea that they’re not trained in this at all. But I’ve met a couple of them who start to see it, and in every patient they see, they see red flags of either psychosocial or biochemical issues that they know that a functional medicine doctor could deal with. And once you see it, you can’t unsee it. And so I think it’s really important. Do you see that mental health therapists and practitioners like that are welcome at IMMH and can learn alongside the psychiatrists and primary care of the world?

Kirkland Newman:
A hundred percent. In fact, our target audience is very broad. So it’s MDs, DOs, psychiatrists, general practitioners, naturopaths, nutritionists, psychologists, psychotherapists, social workers, physician assistants, nurse practitioners. And so anyone from the medical or mental health professions is totally welcome. Even if you’re a passionate lay person, you’re welcome.

It’s a revolution that’s also happening from the ground up, as in patients are asking for better mental healthcare, right? They’re saying, “We know about this. We know that this thing called functional medicine is out there and we won’t better care.”

In terms of what you were saying, we know there’s such a strong connection between the body and the brain. So anybody who’s working in mental therapy, essentially, whether it’s a psychotherapist or a social worker, needs to know a little bit about the biochemistry and about how our mental health is so impacted by our biochemistry. So if you’re sitting on a couch all day and you’re never getting out into the sun and you have weird circadian rhythms and you’re eating junk food all day long, of course you’re going to get depressed or you’re going to get anxious. And so that becomes a mental health issue. And conversely, we know that any sort of mental health issue, whether it’s chronic anxiety or trauma, is then going to affect your biochemistry and your propensity to get ill, and it’s going to affect your immune system. And we know that people, for instance, who’ve had childhood trauma are more susceptible to things like Lyme disease and mold poisoning, which then impact your mental health.

So really what we’re saying, and that’s why the not-for-profit, which is running IMMH, is called MindHealth360. It’s all about the 60 degrees of mental health. And so anybody who’s working with patients, whether from a physical or mental health perspective, I think, really needs this training. Because you can do talk therapy or even somatic therapy until you’re blue in the face. But if somebody has a zinc-copper imbalance or if they have huge amounts of gut dysbiosis or if they have heavy metal poisoning, they’re probably not going to get better and it’s going to be a very, very slow process. And so what I’m trying to do is bring these two worlds together, the world of psychotherapy and mental therapy with the world of biochemistry and the more medical approaches so that the two can really feed off each other, essentially.

James Maskell:
Amazing. Well, I’m looking forward to being there. I’m organizing my October around it to be there. We are going to bring the cameras there for a Functional Forum that we’ll put out to everyone else too. But I do encourage practitioners to be there. So DC, 10th to the 13th of October this year. You can go to goevomed.com/immh to get your tickets, and we’ll have more details in the show notes of how to get involved. Kirkland, thanks for doing this. Really appreciate it. Really excited to see what comes of it. I’m excited to go and be and participate and really looking forward to it. If you guys have any questions who are listening, feel free to reach out and we’ll get you all the details. But in the meantime, this has been The Evolution of Medicine podcast. I’m your host, James Maskell. Thanks so much for tuning in. We’ll see you at IMMH and we’ll see you next time.

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