In this podcast episode, Dr. Alaina Gair delves into her approach to cancer care through group support, inspired by the transformative principles of The Community Cure and events by Dr. Meghan Walker.
In this compelling conversation, Dr. Gair reveals how integrating community-based practices into her naturopathic care has redefined patient experiences by prioritizing emotional support, empowerment, and connection. We explore how the unpredictable journey of cancer can be positively transformed through shared experiences, group healing, and collaboration with oncologists.
Discover why creating a space for empathy, education and solidarity is essential in navigating chronic illnesses like cancer.
Download and listen to the full episode to learn more about:
- How community-based approaches can improve cancer care outcomes
- Groups can work well even when patients have different diagnoses
- Integrating naturopathic and conventional oncology for more comprehensive support
- The value of shared experiences, grief support, and holistic collaboration
- Dr. Gair’s approach to dealing with loss and grief within the group when a member passes away
- And much more
Learn about Group Visit Toolkits
Alaina Gair, ND:
One of the things that really stuck with me that I still remember is the concept around the research around outcomes for patients and how patients in group settings were actually having more favorable outcomes and sticking with their plans and being held accountable by the group versus just by the provider.
James Maskell:
Welcome to the Evolution of Medicine podcast, the place health professionals come to hear from innovators and agitators leading the charge. We cover the latest clinical breakthroughs and health technology, as well as practical tools to help you transform your practice and the health of your community. This podcast is brought to you by the Lifestyle Matrix Resource Center, who provide a range of options to help you deliver successful, effective functional and integrative medicine. To find out more and to get started, go to goevomed.com/lmrc. That’s goevomed.com/lmrc.
Hello and welcome to the podcast. This week we talk with Dr. Alaina Gair. She is the Cancer Naturopath, and she has started a group program called The Cancer Collective, and it was really amazing to get some feedback from her as she’s read my book, The Community Cure, and implemented it into cancer care. I had so many questions, she described it as magical. So we got into a little bit about where that magic comes from, how it’s magical for patients, how it’s magical for her. I think this is a really interesting podcast because there’s just so much about cancer that is unpredictable and there’s so much more that we could do to create unity between oncology and integrative care. And I think you’ll find this really inspiring. It’s a really amazing half an hour. Enjoy.
So a warm welcome to the podcast for the first time, Dr. Elena Gare. Welcome doc.
Alaina Gair, ND:
Thank you so much for having me, James. I’m so happy to be here.
James Maskell:
Well, it’s wonderful to have you here. And actually, the way that we connected is one of my favorite ways to connect, which was amazing feedback from the book, The Community Cure and how you’d implemented it in your practice working with cancer patients. And I just felt like it would be worthwhile to have a story because ultimately you don’t really know what people are doing out in the field. It’s only when you hear from people about how they’ve implemented and how it’s affected them and their patients and their community. So let’s start from the beginning. How did you come across The Community Cure or how did you get into practicing the way that you’re practicing?
Alaina Gair, ND:
So I think that both The Community Cure the book and how I practice have both been very influenced by Meghan Walker. I feel like she is an innovator in the field for naturopathic doctors especially. Really helped me see that I could do things differently and hold space for allowing that energy a little bit versus feeling like because we were taught a one-to-one model that that was how I had to practice because that’s what everyone else does. And so her experiences and her coaching and then I actually was gifted your book through one of her events and it really spoke to me one day and I read it and changed how I offer care to my patients.
James Maskell:
Amazing. So when you first read it, what were the things that jumped out at you that you resonated, and then what were the steps to implement it?
Alaina Gair, ND:
So I had decided to read it and that then I was also going to start a group. And as I read the book, I realized that I probably should have started the group several months later versus a few weeks later. But it worked out quite well. One of the things that really stuck with me that I still remember is the concept around the research around outcomes for patients and how patients in group settings were actually having more favorable outcomes and sticking with their plans and being held accountable by the group versus just by the provider. That for me, was a huge motivator of just being able to help people understand that some of the things that they were asking for help with was something that I heard all the time, but they felt might be unique to them. So it normalized their concerns and then helped them feel like, okay, we’re all kind of in this together even without being of the same diagnosis.
James Maskell:
So yeah. Tell us about those first groups. How did you excite your patients to want to be part of them? Because part of the hard thing with groups is I think once people experience the group, they like it, but they don’t necessarily think they want to be in a group before they try it. Right,
Alaina Gair, ND:
Totally. That was definitely one of the roadblocks I had. But where it initially stemmed from for me was we were getting emails for patients that were pushing back on pricing. Actually, they were saying, I can’t afford one-on-one Care, so I’m going to hold off for right now. And so we actually reached out to that collection of patients and said, what about this? What if we did things differently? And so my first group was actually onboarding a group of new patients that had never done one-on-one care with me.
James Maskell:
Amazing.
Alaina Gair, ND:
So I used the same structure that I use with one-on-one patients, but I implemented it across a group of new patients and onboarded them together and went through that process with them together. Partially their biggest motivator on their end was to reduce cost. So the cost of onboarding compared to onboarding in a one-on-one private care setting was about a third for them. And the benefit was, in my opinion, much higher because they had this connection with each other and support from each other that they weren’t getting anywhere else.
James Maskell:
Beautiful. In the book I discussed an example of Dr. Lara, how she did sort of have everyone go through their timeline and matrix together. And she described to me when I had interviewed her just how one person’s questions ended up being valuable to another person in the group, even though they had a different diagnosis and they’d had a different journey. Did you experience any of those dynamics?
Alaina Gair, ND:
Definitely. It was one of the most common questions we got when we were proposing this project was, okay, but is everyone going to have the same diagnosis? How is that going to fit if we all have different problems? And I reassured them that there would be a learning opportunity from different people’s questions that they just didn’t think to ask, but actually might be holding them back as well. And then the other piece was that despite them all being different ages, different diagnosis, different phases of care, when I went through their intake forms, there still were commonalities. And so we used that information to help pull the group together initially and help them feel like, okay, we are all on our own path here, but we have similar interests. We all want to know what foods can help during chemotherapy. We all want to know how can I sleep better at night? We all want to know how to reduce hot flashes. We all want to know what’s the best way to implement exercise, even though they were all at very different phases. So it worked out so well that way.
James Maskell:
That’s really awesome. Well, look, I’m really excited when I got your message because you work a lot with patients with cancer, and I’d love to just dive into that a bit because seen examples in the book I shared with healing strong groups where people who are trying different alternative medicine or other integrative care can come together and support each other through cancer care. One of the questions I have, and actually this came up at a conference that I was at recently where I think one of the things with cancer is that for most other chronic illnesses like noncommunicable diseases, the pathway there is quite predictable and the pathway back is quite predictable. If you do healthy things consistently, you can go back and if you do unhealthy things consistently, it’ll sort of progress. Cancer just has that sort of X factor of unpredictability. And I’m just wondering how you dealt with that in the groups.
Alaina Gair, ND:
Yeah, I think that’s a really important thing to consider. With cancer, you can do everything and the disease can still progress. And so holding space for that is very different than for people who are working on a different disease that does have that kind of trajectory of like, okay, I ate gluten, my celiac disease got worse, I cut out gluten, things got better. With cancer, patients can be eating like seven to 10 servings of vegetables a day, sleeping well, eating well, moving their bodies well, and disease can still progress. And so being able to normalize that a little bit for patients and take out the blame, because that’s one of the themes I see with patients really often is, what did I do? I must have done something to get cancer or I must have done something to have my chemo not work, whatever it is.
And so we talk a lot about the fact that there are factors we can control and factors we cannot control when we’re looking at this disease. And so I teach my patients about those foundational pieces and that those are the things to rely on. So even in times of progression, we are still leaning back on those basics of nutrition, sleep, stress management, movement, connection, community to really help facilitate health regardless of what your scans might show. And that then the group really did a great job of holding space when patients were having progression or getting bad news.
James Maskell:
Wonderful. Yeah, let’s dive into that because I’d love to understand. I had someone at a conference ask me, “Hey, when these cancer groups, if someone just passes away who’s part of the group? And there was all that connection there, and suddenly that person has gone, how do you keep spirits up amongst the rest of the group?” And I was like, I don’t know, but I’m going to ask Dr. Gair when I speak to her in a week and a half.
Alaina Gair, ND:
So obviously loss progression, bad news and loss are the hardest parts of the work that I do, whether it’s in a group setting or what makes my job heavy. And so the first thing is acknowledging that with the rest of the group of feeling, the weight of this is normal and that I feel like we’ve gotten very uncomfortable being uncomfortable as humans. We don’t like the uncomfortable emotions. We don’t like guilt or grief or shame, sadness. And so instead of distracting ourselves with devices and television and food, we hold space for the absence in the group and we hold space for the people who are getting bad news and the duality that can happen because some patients can be celebrating a positive scan while someone else is not that lucky. And so it’s that I think just patience with it almost of like, this is sad, this is hard, this is heavy. And then there are resources I give them. And I also offer space with one-on-one if they need to talk about the lots a little bit more because when someone isn’t there anymore, that’s really difficult and there isn’t really any way around it other than acknowledging that and holding space for that grief.
James Maskell:
It’s sort of also preparing everyone else for what might happen to them. One of the things that we’ve heard so many times is that chronic disease is isolating. It seems to me, and I’ve been in this through family members or whatever, but cancer might be next-level isolating because of just maybe the way that other people in the world react to you.
Alaina Gair, ND:
I think cancer is one of the diseases that immediately brings your own mortality into focus, even if it’s an early-stage diagnosis. I think it’s one of the things that people often are like, okay, well this could kill me. This could kill me in a matter of months or a matter of years. And so even in an early-stage diagnosis, that concept of being human and that mortality is an inevitability comes into focus. And for some people that is okay and they can sit with it. And for other people it feels a little bit more traumatic to be aware of death and dying. And so when it’s held into focus for them where a group member is lost or passes, it’s one of those things that the experience is very individualized. So some patients can separate the fear and the grief from their own diagnosis and their own likely trajectory, but not always. And so we just have to take it one case at a time and see how people are holding space.
James Maskell:
Do you feel like you’ve got a further degree in death at this point?
Alaina Gair, ND:
I actually, part of me wonders if I would benefit from even intentionally absorbing more of that learning because I feel like it’s something that I’ve had to learn on my own through my own reading and things that I absorb to help me manage what it’s like to hold space for these people. And it’s up and down and there isn’t a lot of support. It’s one of the things that I think is really lacking in naturopathic medicine for practitioners, especially practitioners that deal with really heavy wins and losses. So in cancer, fertility would be another one where I feel like practitioners are holding space for the worst and best days of these people’s lives, and then we have no support, whereas other people that work in a counseling based position actually have mandatory holding space for each other that happens to help them make sure they’re not taking on and ending up with that vicarious trauma.
James Maskell:
Yeah, it’s interesting. Yeah, I’d love to dive further into that at some point in the future because I have a really close friend who I’ve got to experience now specifically as it relates to geriatrics and Alzheimer’s and those kind of things and talking about the different stages of that. And I can just imagine that that’s coming up and you are having to deal with it in the group one way or another it sounds like to me. So if you look in the book, there’s two paths towards group visits. One is like, I’m going to take people who are basically empowered enough to take care of themselves and I’m going to deliver a curriculum and I’m going to have them support each other in implementing that curriculum. And then you’ve got the Jeff Geller empowerment model, which is like, I’m just going to get a group of people that need support and find out what they need, and then we’re going to talk about that. And it sounds like given the way that they came in on the financial side and then given the way you just described it, you are trending towards more of the empowerment model in your groups, right?
Alaina Gair, ND:
Definitely, yeah. It’s very much not curriculum based, and I’ve toyed with the idea of bringing in a theme each session, and I might do that, but right now we fill our hour and a half very quickly. And so it might be something that we add on eventually if I can figure out the way that that would flow well. But right now, the way it functions quite well. And it is been a process for sure, because I don’t know anybody else doing this. And so everything that I’ve built has been something that has come from learning with the group, that initial group that I onboarded and then asking them, what did you like about this? What didn’t work for you? How can we improve this experience so that you’re getting the care that you need in a way that you need it? But one of the things that I found so interesting with cancer population is that when I was younger in practice and even still in school, I just assumed that everyone that gets cancer would want to join a support group. And that is not the case. That energy and that space is not the right fit for everybody. And so the idea behind some of this work for myself was to create a community setting for people that want to be in a community with people that understand what it’s like to have cancer, but they’re not there as a support group. They’re supporting each other, but it’s more of an educational space even though we don’t have that curriculum,
James Maskell:
You learn from each other. Wonderful. Well look, you mentioned in your note that you felt like this was sort of a magical experience. So tell me about the magic. What parts of it are magical? Is it magical for you? Is it magical for them? Is it magical for everyone? I’d love to just tap into what you communicated to me that it was magical. I’d love to understand what you felt was magical.
Alaina Gair, ND:
So one of the things that I think I haven’t shared, and maybe it hasn’t been clear, but my practice is completely virtual. And so when I initially started the group, I was wondering how much of a nurturing community you can build online. And while patients come on and they have their cameras on and they engage in their visits, the impact they have had on each other’s lives and my privilege being witness to that has been the most magical part of my practice over the past two years. So the impact I see them having on each other and from learning from each other’s questions that they didn’t think to ask or that they’re also curious about learning more about has been so impactful. And when somebody gets bad news and another person can say, I am going to pray for you and have the group feel that energy of connectedness and I’m there for you. I can’t do anything to change where you’re at right now, but you’re in my thoughts and you’re in my prayers and this matters and you matter to me. It gives them a, I don’t know, I just feel like they are all doing so much better than they would if they had seen me one-on-one because they have each other.
James Maskell:
Well, you must have quite a stark contrast because you run your practice and people come and see you, and then the people who couldn’t afford it were put in this group. And so what would you say are some of the discrepancies or dispar differences between those patients and how they do?
Alaina Gair, ND:
Yeah, so I think that there’s almost three categories I would give you with this. So I have the people who uptook the group and have stuck with it because they’re like, this is the best. We have the people that I really think should be in the group and are kind of not ready to adopt that model yet. But I’m hoping to change some of my language around it possibly. I think it’s probably a scripting issue for me that I need to explain what we’re doing a little bit better. And then I have people that really do belong in one-on-one care that the complexity of the case that they’re in the phase of treatment or their personality style of struggling to open up for right now, it just fits better with being one-on-one with me. But generally that group in the middle, they are the people that I find are, I’m giving them the same advice week after week.
They’re not fully adhering to it and they’re getting better, but not as much better as they would. Whereas when you go into the group and someone else asks a question that pertains to you as well, and then you get clearance to adopt that recommendation as well. You are seeing someone else a few steps ahead of you and how they benefited from it. And it motivates, I think, to make that change. So whether it’s something as simple as implementing more fiber to improve digestive tract function or lower cholesterol, those are all things that people with cancer, like those outside of direct cancer diagnosis, we forget about all of those other pieces of health that are still really important. And this helps bring people back to looking at their body as a whole person, I think.
James Maskell:
Yeah. Well, let’s talk about the people. The people that need individual care. My thesis, I guess moving forward here is that the standard of care by which integrated medicine becomes the standard of care is where the group is central to the care journey. And that means that the group is providing the safety, the accountability, the friendship, the connection, the participation, the baseline participation and empowerment, and that the role of the provider is to orchestrate everyone into the group. You don’t have to run it yourself, but you at least orchestrate that it happens, and that’s the sort of care core of the delivery model. And then the providers who are highly trained in individualized medicine are there on the edge to provide individualized support based on the case. And some people just need the group and some people need the group and the support. And I’d love to get your thoughts on that as it relates to those people that you think need one-on-one care.
Alaina Gair, ND:
So I think that when we’re looking at that concept of the one-on-one care for me still happens in the group. It’s just in front of other people. So everyone submits their questions. It’s part of the model I have. They get a questionnaire beforehand, they fill in their, which kind of replaces a soap note almost. It’s like they’re doing it themselves, which was an idea from your book, I believe, where there was a doctor in the UK I believe who had that system where patients were effectively filling in their own soap notes during the session. So patients fill in a questionnaire for me and ask questions, and then they give consent to discuss those questions with the group. And that’s where the kind of overlap happens, where it goes from being one-on-one within to kind of merging it as a group conversation. Then when the patient has been resistant to joining the group model from one-on-one.
And I feel like maybe that person is actually better suited to one-on-one for the time being. It’s often because they are receiving things like experimental care, maybe they’re in clinical trials. So there are a lot of limitations and often I am talking with them for an hour at a time, just that one person and that I’m struggling to implement. I’m trying to figure out where that person would overlap. And I would probably have that type of patient do both models where they’re seating me less frequently and then joining the group model to kind of do touchups and that would allow them that sense of community and connection, but still that really in depth conversation that some of my patients do need.
James Maskell:
Beautiful. Well, look, I really want to acknowledge what it takes to do something different. I want to acknowledge a few things. Obviously I really appreciate Dr. Meghan Walker. Her and I have been in agreement about the work that we’re doing since I first met her at the AMP, I think 2013, 14. And she’s incredible, and I know she’s had a big impact on a lot of people. Yeah, the thing that you’re talking about, filling out the SOAP notes, I want to give a shout out to our sponsor here on the podcast Lifestyle Matrix Resource Center because that’s actually one of the ideas that they had, which is they have these forms that when you do the group visit, and especially if you’re doing it on insurance to fill out, if the patient can fill out 90% of the work, it reduces the sort of complexity of getting all the admin done for a group. And so I think that’s really, really powerful, I guess. Yeah, I’ve got an opportunity in the next month here to do a talk in front of people who are responsible for the care of millions and millions of people. And while I’ve got you here, now you’ve experienced what you’ve experienced. If you had to draw on that experience to share what you think is an optimal standard of care for someone going through cancer, how would you use what you’ve learned to explain what you think that standard of care should be?
Alaina Gair, ND:
Yeah, I think that’s a great question. I am really excited about the way that naturopathic medicine can work alongside conventional care. In oncology, specifically, oncology treatment is so important. We can’t get around for some patients needing radiation, chemotherapy surgeries. But the theme that I hear from my patients over and over again is this sense of disconnect that happens. There is such a rushing in the system so they don’t always feel heard and supported. And on top of that, then they also feel disconnected from their communities and their families and their friends because often no one else really understands what they’re going through. And when you merge these two models where you have oncologists running conventional care and you have naturopathic medicine supporting with a group model alongside if that were to merge where patients receive their diagnosis and their treatment plan and then they move into a group model where they’re getting all of the lifestyle based medicine that is safe alongside conventional treatment and may even impact how effective conventional treatment can be, and they’re getting it in a group model.
So they’re getting that value of community as well. I think that that person then feels empowered because there are things they can do at home and they know what’s, and they can actually do those things at home. They are getting community and they’re getting clarity around their treatment plans, so they feel more trusting of the system in general. Whereas for my patients that have seen me after receiving conventional care, the trauma of going through the medical system for them is very heavy. Some patients have excellent that have a little bit more time or a little bit more wiggle room or nurses that are really supportive and allow that patient to feel heard and answered and their concerns and questions and their fears are answered. But I have so many patients that fall through the cracks, and that is really where I feel like naturopathic medicine fills this huge gap where we can support the patient in their conventional treatment. And the group model facilitates that even further because you get other people that are going through that model as well that understand the pros and cons of the model that we’re working within Canada and that then know this is where we come for support, this is where we come to ask questions. This is where we come to find out what tools are going to be the most beneficial alongside the treatment I’m receiving versus Dr. Google or my friend told me to drink this tea. So I think that’s where I can see it being so magical.
James Maskell:
That’s wonderful. I appreciate you sharing that. And even one of the examples that I gave in the book, healing Strong Communities, as much as it excites me that that kind of thing exists a community structure of people who want to do alternative and supportive integrative therapies during cancer care, I just realized, well, as long as it’s completely disconnected from the oncologist, right, it’s going to end up being this battle. It’s always this battle. I mean, my mother experienced that battle where it was like the oncologist has no idea what these things are. He’s rushed, he doesn’t have time to get into it. He has no basis in the understanding the education or what’s needed or what works or what doesn’t work. I could see how it has a lot of benefits as far as the community and the structure, but it needs to be connected. And I’m sure that even an oncologist would agree that getting people in groups providing support for them and allowing them to implement healthy behaviors, that there’s the downside risk of that is zero. We’re not talking about mainlining resveratrol, right? We’re talking
Taking care of oneself and being in community for support. And so I feel like that sort of structure is much less antagonistic to conventional oncology and therefore has a lot more chance of being successful. I mean, you see, even in the world today, lifestyle medicine is being taken up in mainstream healthcare in a way that naturopathic medicine or functional medicine doesn’t because it’s less antagonistic. And I think even oncologists would be like, yeah, doing healthy things is great. If you can help them to do that, then wonderful. And so I think that this is the way in, this is the way for connection and unity and unity in cancer care, which I know that very, very few people experience. If you go to Cancer Treatment Centers of America and you have a naturopathic doctor on your team, lucky that for most people, that’s not the standard of care, and I acknowledge that you are doing the hard work to try and make it fit. Have you had conversations with oncologists about the group and how have those gone?
Alaina Gair, ND:
Yeah, so part of my process, especially with one-on-one care has always been to write a letter to the oncologist to say, this is what I’m doing, please reach out. It’s to open communication so that the concept of me being a crazy witch doctor is hopefully lessened at least a little bit. It allows them to say, okay, I’m not comfortable with all of this, or I’m going to send your treatment plan through to the pharmacy team and we’re going to kind of figure out what’s safe and what we don’t agree with, and then we’ll go from there. What I don’t think oncologists have thought about is that for the type of doctor that I am and the way that I work and the way that my patients connect with me, and the way that that is even fostered even further with the group is that there are times when patients are apprehensive about conventional care that is really important for them, and I become the glue there.
I become the person that helps guide them to that choice. And oncologists are like, either do it. They don’t have time to nurture that trust always, but I do. And with the group setting and oncologists, that is where connecting with them has actually been beneficial for my practice because while the connections are always somewhat sparse, it’s a quick note back on a fax cover sheet usually because they’re so overwhelmed, that openness to what I’m doing has improved with time as I continue to write those letters to tell them, this is what I’m doing and I am facilitating your treatment plan as well and helping your patient manage the side effects that it creates. So generally that has gone well and I’m hoping to have opportunities to meet with oncologists in person more and more in the future, but it’s difficult.
James Maskell:
Yeah, well look, this year’s theme has been unity and next year’s theme is transformation, and I can see how one can lead to the other. If you can find a way to connect with those doctors to create safety, to create connection, help them understand why you’re doing what you’re doing, put it in terms that they can understand,
I think that’s a great starting point. And so I look forward to following along as you take this forward in the journey ahead. And I just want to say, yeah, look, thank you. The whole point about the purpose of the first book Evolution of Medicine was if I put it in the hands of a conventional doctor, would they read it and be like, I should be doing that. And it’s always been amazing to hear doctors who that’s resonated with and have just switched their practice around to practice in any way. The purpose of this book was that someone would read it and be thinking like, Hey, we should really reorganize care with groups at the middle. And so anytime I meet someone who has done that and is doing that, it’s always amazing. And I just want to say thank you for reading, for participating, for executing. I know it’s very difficult to change workflows and that kind of thing initially, and it sounds like some of the early experiences gave you the momentum to see it through to where it is today. And yeah, really appreciate you reaching out and for having such a great story, and I hope that this inspires people who are listening to think about how to organize their care.
Alaina Gair, ND:
Yeah, I hope so as well. And thank you so much for your book, James. It really is for such, it is not a long read, but it really does very quickly help you see the light that community can bring to healthcare. And for so many patients, that concept of disconnection is a huge part of their diagnosis. And so allowing them to reconnect in a way that feels safe for them and a way that feels empowering and educational has been unbelievably wonderful for the people in my group. So I’m so grateful for your book. Thank you.
James Maskell:
Of course. Thank you. Well, that’s lovely to hear and a great story. If you are listening to this at home and you are thinking like, Hey, I’ve done some groups and they’ve been pretty transformational too. All you have to do is reach out. You can reach out through Evolution of Medicine through the podcast, james.maskell@goevomed.com, all of those different places. I read all of that stuff. I’m interested in it. It’s always, this is the most joyful part of doing what I do, is to know that this is working and happening and the downstream effects are real and tangible, and especially when they’re magical. That’s my favorite. Alright, well, how can people find out more about your practice? What’s the best way to see what you are up to and check out the website?
Alaina Gair, ND:
Yeah, absolutely. So website’s, the best way to find out more about me, it’s thecancernaturopath.com, and you can read more about, we call our group the Cancer Collective. So that’s up there a little bit about myself and my practice style is there, and then the different ways that I work with people are there as well. So you can always feel free to check that out. I’ve been a little bit absent on social media recently, mostly because I’m just trying to cut back on device use myself. But so my website’s the best way to connect, and then you can always connect through email as well, which is info@thecancernaturopath.com.
James Maskell:
Amazing. Dr. Alaina Gair, thanks for being part of the Evolution of Medicine podcast. Thanks for your insight in innovation. This is the Evolution of Medicine podcast. I’m your host, James Maskell. Thanks so much for tuning in and we’ll see you next time.
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