Total Load Theory

James Maskell:

I just know so many families who watched their baby change after that hep B shot, and some of them just changed drastically in their ability to relate in those first 24 hours of life. And some actually died. These kids were born during covid, when their life was full of fear. They didn’t have the same social relationships that children before them had. People wore masks. They didn’t see them smile. It’s really pathetic what we did to this new, emerging generation.

Hello and welcome to the podcast. This week we feature Patty lemma. She is a writer, she is an author, she is an educator, she is a counselor, and she has been a licensed professional counselor for over 40 years. She used to come to the functional forums in Pittsburgh. You’ll hear about that, but she is, you know, it’s kind of a central figure in the autism world.

Wrote a book called outsmarting autism in 2014 that has been expanded, and now, with her new book that I had the opportunity to do a forward for, she is expanding and bringing that to new audiences. You’ll hear in the episode, there’s some you know, incredible crossover, and just you know, the life of a woman who has done incredible things to make people aware of the world as it is and how kids are in it, and what we can do to keep them healthy and reverse some of the dysfunction caused by their unhealthy environment.

Really interesting session, and really grateful to know Paddy. Enjoy. So a warm welcome to the podcast. Paddy lemma, welcome.Thanks, James. It’s wonderful to be here. I’m really excited to be here, and I’m really excited to get into so many interesting topics that are related to chronic pediatric illness your book. But it has to be said that on the day that we are recording, this is the day that hepatitis B vaccine has been taken off the schedule for newborns by the ACIP committee.

And I guess if you, if you wind back to the first time that we interacted, maybe around the early, early functional forums, it’s like totally a miracle. My daughter’s in her 50s, and I remember having to sign a paper that said no, Hep B when she was born, and to never let her out of my sight so that they didn’t Jabber. Yeah. Well, I mean, times are changing, and, you know, you and I connected through some of those topics.

And we’ll get into, you know, to that generally, but yeah, I mean, I would say, from my perspective, this just seems sort of like the low hanging fruit of what could be accomplished when you have people who are really thoughtful. I think this brings us into line with other major European countries that have better outcomes, both outcomes, pediatric outcomes better, but also, you know, lifetime, chronic illness better.

And ultimately, you know, if it was just a question of whether or not this reduced hepatitis B, which it doesn’t. And there’s you can see that the statistics show that there’s more Hepatitis B now that we have that shot than before. But then the second question is, you know, what are the long term ramifications, both for chronic pediatric illness and then for lifelong autoimmunity?

And those are things that we don’t know for sure, but I think that many people who have been around this industry and have been around the sort of the medical wreckage of you know people who don’t do well with it, see the signs of problems that need to be taken care of. So I’m really grateful to have you on this week, and love to get your your thoughts on it.

Well, I’m grateful that you wrote the foreword to my new book, total load theory. And I just know so many families who watched their baby change after that hep B shot, and some of them just changed drastically in their ability to relate in those first 24 hours of life. And some actually died. And so this app, this is absolutely a day to celebrate where we have gained health freedom on our ability to decide whether our babies receive this shot.

Yes, well said, and let’s jump into it so you know you are a licensed professional counselor practice and educational diagnostician for 40 years. You’re an author and an educator. You know you’ve written these books, the first round of the book called our smarting autism. I think that’s kind of what you’re you’re best known for, and I know you’ve done other work as well, but I guess maybe you could just share a little bit about your pathway and journey to, you know, to be part of this.

You know how you ended up here? So I ended up here because I questioned why. I always wanted to know why a child was behaving as they did, and I was fortunate enough to be working with a multidisciplinary team that included an occupational. Therapist and a nutritionist, and they informed me about some of the foundational problems with kids who were showing behavior on learning problems, and that it wasn’t just behavior and it wasn’t just a learning disability.

And so for years, I did testing with kids who had quote dyslexia and potential behavior problems and did paradigm switches with the parents asking about lifestyle factors, what were they eating for breakfast? How much sleep were they getting, how much time they spent outdoors and even back 4050, years ago, when I started, there were no screens.

Kids played in the woods, and now we have the whole screen issue, where kids aren’t moving, they’re working in two dimensions instead of in three dimensions, and they’re just so many stress factors on the body and the brain that it’s a wonder that any child is able to learn and be present and have language and social skills, and the body and brain are so resilient that they can overcome some of these.

But my book total load theory looks at what happens when all these stressors accumulate and a child’s growing body and brain just simply doesn’t have the bandwidth to solve the problem of too many stressors, and ultimately you’ve ended up with your organization and then merging now into The epidemic answers group. And I guess, why is it that you feel like autism is the sort of the critical coming together of this theory?

So autism is what happened from earlier issues with kids. When I first started in the late 60s, it was basically only genetic issues like Down syndrome, we didn’t see environmentally caused behavioral and learning problems. In the 70s, we moved to learning disabilities. 80s, we moved to attention deficit disorder, and in the 90s, we saw the emergence of more and more autism, and it’s the same basic issue with all the environmental and social stressing factor, and as they accumulated more and more the children’s diagnoses became more and more serious.

And then you add on all that happened with the mandating and the masking and the isolation and anxiety during covid, and all of a sudden we see some more mental health disorders increasing and emerging, obsessive compulsive disorder, anxiety, panic disorders, and a new branch that you are aware of of metabolic psychiatry, where we have a group of psychiatrists, led by Dr Chris Palmer, who says, Well, maybe these have something to do with what a child is, eating and drinking and some of the lifestyle issues.

So we’ve gone full circle in my 50 year career of looking at these issues and autism is really described just as behaviors. Nobody had looked at some of the underlying biological and medical issues and autism and it’s, it’s the same thing all over again, but more and more serious, yeah, certainly where all those things come together. Well, you know, ultimately, it was a great honor to write the forward for the new version of it, and first time it was outsmarting autism.

Now it’s total load theory. What led to the change in name and what’s the difference in the content? That’s a great question. Thank you. So outsmarting autism had two additions when I wrote it. First in 2014 I thought I was finished, and then all kinds of things changed, especially with children who are now non speakers, being able to communicate a whole wave of spellers who are now who we didn’t consider having any competence.

We’re now assuming competence with them as we’ve broken through their silence, but as neurodiversity came along, it wasn’t so sexy anymore to talk about outsmarting. They weren’t interested in being outsmarted. And so the book changed somewhat, both for the reason that I wanted to reach a larger audience, the learning disability and attention deficit audience and the mental health audience, as well as being able to honor neuro diversity and looking at these people as part of a continuum, and if they were suffering, if they were struggling,

I wanted to be able to access them also, and hopefully they’ll. At some of the biological and sensory issues that accompany their diagnoses. Yeah, I mean, certainly the same physiological factors are happening at the root of all these issues. It’s funny, when I saw Chris Palmer speak at the integrative medicine mental health conference, I recognized that the same causative factors that he was saying were driving mental health, we’re all actually driving also cognitive decline.

And you know, it’s very interesting to see that, I think, you know, we’re talking about the same issue just at the beginning of life and the end of life. But ultimately, the truth is, and the solution is, is that the solution is always the same, which is like to bring back health and function into the organs and systems by removing what’s not meant to be there and putting more of what we need to be there. And it’s actually extremely simple and actually very clear across all of the different, you know, all the different areas, but we’re definitely complicating something that is reasonably simple in my mind.

I think you’re right. And years and years ago, when I started my organization, developmental delay resources, Dr Sid, with Dr Bernie Rimland was one of the first people who said, look, take out the bad stuff and put in the good stuff, which is basically what you just said. And it is simple. It’s not that complicated, but changing people’s habits is like hitting your head against the wall and eating Twinkies and drinking Coke is part of the American way.

And so many of these kids are malnourished, so many of them have sleep disorders, so many of them never go outside anymore. And some of those basic lifestyle issues, I learned more and more I had to include in the book, and they were not in the first book. And then I added a chapter on lifestyle, and then I added a chapter, this time on nervous system regulation. Nervous system regulation, dysregulation because of trauma, because of panic, because of fear mongering.

This is a whole new part of life that children today experience with their parents being helicopters over them, telling them to be careful and be safe and go slow and you and kids confidence is undermined because they don’t understand that they can do things themselves without depending on adult today’s kindergarten teachers are saying they’re seeing different kids. These kids were born during covid. The five year olds of today were born during covid When their life was full of fear.

They didn’t have the same social relationships that children before them had. People wore masks. They didn’t see them smile. It’s really pathetic what we did to this new, emerging generation of kids. I appreciate you sharing that. And someone who has a child who is four, you know, the lengths that we went to sort of maintain as normal life as possible for them, which included, you know, starting an alternative school and moving to the countryside was, you know, was, was a lot, but ultimately you got to do what you got to do.

But also, yeah, I’d love to just tap into, you know, what you said about the nervous system regulation. Because, you know, we work, actually, one of the clinics locally. And one of the reasons why I moved here is friends of mine who are pediatricians who do incredible work, and they have a 0% autism rate in their clinic in California. But one of the things, and it’s zero with the kids that came into their practice, it’s a little higher.

And obviously, because people come to find them, because they actually have a history of reversing it in kids, I think some of the special sauce that they have beyond, you know, beyond the sort of functional medicine interventions of diet and lifestyle and maybe supplementation and understanding where dysfunction is happening is in the nervous system. Regulation work, particularly as it relates to things like craniosacral therapy, is some of the things that is sort of standard in their operating system.

And I’ve seen this firsthand for more than 20 years. When I was living in Connecticut, I worked with an OT there who worked closely with a number of, you know, doctors, and had great success in that work too. And I just feel like the nervous system is sort of emerging as this key mediator for, you know, stress and health and disease. And so I’m glad that you’re adding it to the total load theory, right? And it’s so ironic, because when I was working with kids with learning disabilities.

In the 70s, the neurologist who was the first person that a pediatrician sent a student to for an evaluation, and I cannot recall one single traditional neurologist who came up with any solution were not able to say this child had a nervous system disorder. Yet prior to that, when I was working with kids with diagnosed genetic disorders, I was fortunate enough to work with a neurologist who had us as part of a multidisciplinary team, and he was one of the first to use a ketogenic diet to stop seeing.

Sure. So what goes around comes around. Here we are now with the metabolic psychiatrist having discovered the importance of diet, and especially a ketogenic diet, with high fat and a person’s well being. And so it’s just amazing. It’s like a dream for me, like today’s dream of removing this happy jotted bird, having a psychiatrist be considered diet is like a miracle.

Yeah, there’s a lot happening in that end, and I think that it is accelerating, and it’s exciting to see. You know, when we started the functional forum, it was literally like an underground movement in that our events were underground, and you used to go to the events in Pittsburgh, right? Is that? Right? I did. I had the place to go to watch the functional forum, and we would get 5060, people in Pittsburgh to watch you interview people.

It was so much fun, James, it really was. And to get that number of people in a such a traditional medical model. Town was remarkable. You know, Pittsburgh blows off a lot of what we have to say. And I’m just hoping that soon we will have a center that is a little more open minded about the body brain connection. Yeah, it’s interesting. You know, the brain, it does seem I’ve sort of said that I think 2026 is going to be the year of the brain, and that’s because if you look at all the different areas, you know, on the pediatric side, obviously, we were really trying to understand what is happening to the brains of our children.

And I you mentioned screens there, but even more screens came along. There were, you know, significant toxic elements that were messing with the brains of children, causing inflammation or otherwise. And I think a key understanding of what drives brain inflammation is going to be critical, because if you go to the other end of the spectrum to cognitive decline, you know we are about to see the publication of the first placebo controlled study in reversing cognitive decline of a functional medicine methodology, all the details, but look, it’s about reducing brain inflammation and understanding what comes where the brain inflammation comes from, and dealing with it.

And I think it’s going to be pretty shocking to the rest of medicine to see if you do that in a personalized way, what percentage of people get better? And I think it’s going to be hard to say that we should be doing things the way they were doing it. Because, you know, if you look at like number needed to treat drugs don’t work that well. They don’t, you know, the high percentage they don’t. They don’t do what they’re meant to do that often. They do it occasionally and for short periods of time. But the only way for us to really reclaim health at scale is through health, right?

And using drugs without changing lifestyle. It, to me, is like trying to fill the bathtub with the drain out. You just you have to look at those basics, you have to look at food, you have to look at sleep, you have to look at movement. And I know that I can improve function in any child by focusing on those areas. And the parents are so stressed trying to make a living to do what they need to do, to be, quote, good parents, unquote.

And it’s it’s just overwhelming for them. And the demands, the social demands, the academic demands of society. Our schools are don’t understand normal development anymore. Our pediatricians have changed the guidelines on developmental milestones so that we’re dumbing down our kids. Crawling has been taken out of developmental milestones, and we know how important crawling is for integrating the brain.

So even before the brain becomes inflamed, it has had impediments put on it in brain development, all those things that increase brain development, that increase neurons, those things have been taken out of childhood under the umbrella of safety. We can’t let a child run around in the woods. We can’t let him fall and pick himself up again, because it’s unsafe, and the safety ideas are misinformed. So children need to learn how to get out of trouble.

All right, we’re going to take a little bit of a break from the interview just to talk about our mission partners and some of the tools that are available to you. If you’re listening to every episode, you already know that we have mission partners right now that can facilitate you building the brain health practice of the future. So we talked last week about fullscript and some of the tools that they have to make it easy for you to run the details of running a practice day to day.

They are the whole person platform, and they have a lot of tools to make it easy to just have one one platform to organize your supplements and labs and so forth. So go to goevomed.com/fullscript, and we’re going to be bringing you some of the tools. That most practitioners don’t seem to know about, but are really cool within them, we have freedom practice coaching, go to goevomed.com/fpc and you can really see where your practice is.

And if you want to grow your practice, if you want to add another practitioner, you want to grow your revenue, if you want to bring in new patients, if you want to you know, if you want to sell your practice to private equity, that’s a good place to do come and have a conversation. goevomed.com/fpc, you could do the scalability assessment. Get in touch. You know, freedom practice coaching is helping practices get their shit together, basically and ultimately. If that’s you, maybe you need to have that conversation.

And bigboost.marketing Uli is the master. He has been super helpful in me getting this up and running. Super grateful to Uli. If you need to bring low cost discovery calls into your practice, speak to Uli and then obviously Truneura is in the business of helping people organize brain health. We have so many practitioners launching brain health programs. If you want to be one of them. It’s synergistic with HRT. It’s a really good fit if you have any sort of mental health focus in your practice, this is just a huge thing that’s happening in society.

And we have very exciting pending information, you know, pending on the first placebo controlled trial of a functional medicine methodology. So goevomed.com/truneura these are our mission partners. We have some really exciting new partners that we’re going to be announcing soon. Have you ever wished that you had a VA that was trained in your that was pre trained in your EHR and knew how to use servo before you, you know, even used it? We’re going to be talking about that soon. If that’s interesting, get in touch with me.

james@goevomed, I’ve got some exciting things coming up. This has been our mission partners. Let’s get back to the interview. Yeah, getting out of trouble. They know how to get in, and then they need to learn to get out. And they say, Daddy, help me. Teacher, help me. Mommy, help me. It’s their brains and bodies are not connected, because they haven’t had the movement experiences that make vision work.

And as you know from looking at my book, vision is one of my favorite topics, and how vision must emerge as a as the dominant sense, so that we can ideate and organize and create, and if we depend on a GPS to get us from point A to point B, we’re not having to think anymore, and that that’s a huge impediment to our children’s development today. Yeah, you mentioned the word vision your second book envisioning a bright future interventions that work for children and adults with autism spectrum disorders.

What was it about vision that you felt was so compelling, and why does that play a big role in that topic?

Well, that book was actually my first book, and it was published by the optometric extension program. I was asked to write that to help developmental optometrists understand the role of the other aspects of the total load, the nutrition, the movement and how vision worked in learning and behavior. And so vision in English is used synonymously with the word eyesight.

So when we do an evaluation and we say a child’s vision is okay, what we usually are saying is that he can see 20 at 20 feet with accuracy. But most times, those vision evals don’t measure what how clear it is at near point, and they don’t measure the higher level visual skills of the two eyes working together as is necessary to read, or the eyes working with the brain. When we look at our watch and we say, I’m late, we have translated the big hand on one number and the little hand on another to a concept.

And that’s what vision is. It’s conceptual. It’s the brain focusing on and giving meaning to what is seen when a baby looks at his mommy and says, Mama, that’s a concept that baby is perceiving that face as different from another woman’s face. So vision is very complicated. It depends on the two eyes working together and the eyes working with the brain, and that’s an important part of development that is not always understood.

Yeah, I’ve had the opportunity to get to know Dr Bryce Applebaum quite well in the last couple of years, and he is doing some tremendous things with, you know, helping people improve their vision, which is another area where people just feel like it’s just something that goes away. And he’s done these intensives, and I know recently I saw Dr Chatterjee was there. Dave Asprey is gone. Christine Burke, my business partner, you know, has gone over there as well. And you know, quite exceptional. What is actually able to happen when you sort of train the eyes, you know? And you

I’m giggling because I help Bryce out. Applebaum’s Father, Stanley Applebaum, start his practice. No way, yep. And Bryce Applebaum’s mother is an occupational therapist. And in the late 70s, early 80s, Stan and his wife Barbara, started one of the very first OT practices, where an optometrist and an occupational therapist work collaboratively to help kids with learning and behavior problems. And in the 80s, I put on two forums, like the functional forums called the OTOD collaboration, and I did one on the East Coast and one on the West Coast, and we helped form other practices.

Lynn Hellerstein, who’s an optometrist in Denver, started a practice with her sister, Lynn Fishman, and several other practices were started because of that OTOD symposiums that I did in the 80s. So I just, I remember when Bryce Applebaum was born, and I’m giggling, because you are now, we’re now looking at him as the next generation who we had are now, depending upon to spread this word. It’s just fantastic.

Yeah, well, I want to honor, you know, obviously, like the all of the things that are happening right now in society, like you said, from metabolic psychiatry for mental illness, to the rethinking of how we take care of kids in the first day of life. You know, all of this is built on decades of work by so many people who, in many cases, were actually just directly affected by something, and we’re sort of activated into work. But you know, I do think that, like you said, there is a new generation that is emerging, and I think that that’s what’s accelerating this movement forward.

And I hope that in my lifetime, it’ll be done like it’ll just be a mission that has been achieved, and we have come around to realizing the downside of symptoms as a primary method of understanding the human body, and that, you know, ultimately, we’re in a position where we understand what true health is and how to create health across a population. I agree, and I think you’re amazing that you think that this can happen in your lifetime. I hope you’re right. When I founded developmental delay resources in the 90s, my co founder and I believed that within five or 10 years, we wouldn’t need this organization anymore, because everybody would get it right, the world would change.

And 20 years later, when I handed it over to epidemic answers now documenting hope. I was thankful that they were there and grateful that they could carry on the work, but there’s still a lot of work to be done. And what I love about my new book is that it talks to this new generation of technologically savvy young doctors and practitioners, because it has an AI companion to it, and this AI companion was started for me by an Australian dad who attributes his son’s recovery from severe autism at three to typical development and better at 11 to my book outsmarting autism, and he has gifted me this chat GPT like companion that searches my intellectual material in the same way that chat GPT searches the internet.

So if you go to ai.patricialemer.com and you can search, ask a question to the book and over 100 podcasts that I’ve done on my part, my bi monthly podcast called The Autism detective, and it’s remarkable the book answers or that the companion answers your question, your personalized question, by looking in the book, data and podcasts that I’ve done, and it even brings up a podcast of someone who I’ve interviewed and says, Well, Dr so and so answers this question, and Patty says, but this doctor says, Would you like to hear his answer?

And then you can click on that particular podcast, even with a time stamp, to be able to do it quickly and accurately, and in the not too distant future, it’s going to also have a voice application so that not only do you get the typed in answer, I answer it in my own cloned voice that I. And that can be done in 70 languages. So you can ask a question, hopefully in French or Spanish or German, and it will answer you in your native language. It’s, it’s like science fiction to me. I mean, when I grew up, we wanted, we had a Dick Tracy watch that we hoped we could someday see who we were talking to. Like you and I are talking that was science fiction when I was growing up.

And now it’s like, just every day, just a normal way of being, yeah. Well, why don’t you project out a little bit further from here? I mean, why don’t you say, like in the next 10 years, you know, you’re still fully participating in, you know, your mission and vision? What do you think you’d like to see, as far as progress with, you know, with the disease categories that you care about?

Oh, that’s a great question. I would like to see educated parents have the health freedom to make educated decisions about the health of their children and for them to be able to work collaboratively with their healthcare professionals. I listened to those hearings two days ago, before they made this momentous decision today, and that was one of the big messages that doctors listen to their patients, that they don’t tell them what to do, that they offer them more than symptomatic relief, that they look at underlying causes, root causes, and that they themselves are educated about nutrition and movement and Diet and the higher level thinking processes that are necessary to be able to think and work effectively.

This is my hope. I’m turning 80 next year, and I want to be able to pass this information on. I’m fortunate to be mentoring a lot of young people, and this is just a great pleasure to me to be able to carry on this information and to pass my knowledge on, because I am not going to be here to do it. But what I’ve seen so in my lifetime, it’s been a miracle to get this happy shot out of the first 24 hours of life is a miracle to be able to make our decisions about our kids, that be able for you to be able to start a school that has appropriate developmental milestones and respects children’s need to play and children’s bodies to move, that’s it’s just wonderful, James, it’s just wonderful to be able to speak with you about how you changed your lifestyle.

You changed your life to accommodate what you knew was appropriate development and not fall into this accelerated academic programming and need for computers instead of real life experiences. Congratulations to you and and what you’ve done, thank you. It’s been a labor of love, and it’s very joyful. You know, I’m in the part of it where I’m getting the benefit without so much work. It was a lot of work at the beginning, but, you know, now I have both kids go to that and have exactly what you said. You know, it is developmentally appropriate.

You know, I think about a marketing campaign, because so many people are realizing the downside of technology. You know, could you just, if you just send a message, just saying, like, come to the school where there’s no technology? I mean, ultimately, I feel like that could just be enough. But, you know, certainly the way, I think the most exciting thing that I see is just the will inside my eldest daughter, particularly, to follow her own ideas.

And I was asked, actually, in an interview a few years into the functional forum by an old friend of mine, like, what is it that gave you the confidence in your own ideas to just go and do like you’ve done? And I’m not even sure what it was, but like that is, if there’s anything that I wanted to pass on to my daughter, it’s that, because ultimately, it’s like we need that. We need a lot more of that. And it’s fun to live in a world where you get to, you know, follow your own heart and your own mind. So it’s fun, and it’s just so rewarding to watch these kids who have the confidence to forge ahead.

And I think it’s remarkable that you and I are here talking about this. Neither of us is a doctor, but both of us understand the the front and the back. There’s a Japanese saying every friend has a back and the back side of all these good things like technology. You and I couldn’t be doing this podcast today. I couldn’t have an AI companion to my book without technology, but we don’t want to misuse that technology with developing minds.

Those developing minds have a different need, which is to move and play and experience life so that they gain confidence. That’s the way conceptualization happens. And. And how far does your school go? Does it go beyond eighth grade? No, just eighth grade. Yeah. And then you’ve got the high school issue of, what are we learning in high school that prepares us for life and not just for college? Are we going to teach?

We’re going to cross that bridge when we come to it? I’m already I’ve got a few ideas, but we’ll get to it. The other thing is to get this message to the medical health world, the mental health world is stuck. It’s stuck in psychiatry. It’s stuck in talk do talk therapy and do medication. There’s so much more available to our mentally ill patients, and talk therapy and drugs, and we have to have our mental health professionals, our psychiatrists, our social workers, our counselors understand why they have to understand and talk about diet and sleep and movement, because those are the things that get us out of trouble and what happens to people who’ve been traumatized.

People are in fight and flight, and until we get to the nervous system that is dysregulated because of trauma, we’re never going to be able to get to these helping these people. And I attribute Neil Nathan to helping me understand the importance of this. He and I have had very parallel careers. We’re exactly the same age, and it’s been wonderful getting to know him lately and working with him. He was a big contributor to how this book, this total load theory book, is different from outsmarting autism because he recognized he was doing all the right things with his patients, and some of them didn’t get well, and the ones that didn’t get well were the ones who were in fight or flight, who were didn’t feel safe, who were traumatized.

And that is incorporated in my book, and why it is so important that we get out there to the ADHD and mental health population. Yeah, I want to honor you and your book, and I’m super grateful to have had the opportunity to write the forward. So if you’re listening to this and you want a good read going, you can find it on Amazon, Barnes and Noble. It’s called total load theory, transforming lives in autism, ADHD, LD, SPD, and mental health.

It’s published by children’s health defense. Forward is by me, and you know, I also want to thank those who are listening to this, who are doing this work in the community, because ultimately, you know, books and that kind of content can be really helpful to guide you in the right direction, but finding resources locally who can help reinforce that and help to you know, individualize it for you, that’s what’s really powerful.

And hopefully you are one of those resources, or we’re building a network of those resources to help people in their journey. So thank you for being part of it, and thank you for your pioneering work. Thank you, James, for having me on and again, for your wonderful forward. I’m so appreciative, awesome. Well, this has been the evolution of medicine podcast. We’ve been here with paddy lemma, and we will be putting all the details in the show notes about the book and how to get hold of the AI support. Thanks so much for tuning in. This is the being the evolution of medicine podcast, and we’ll see you next time you.

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